How do I express that a culture has a different standard of beauty?

So if you want to create a culture in which overweight bodies are perceived as beautiful, you really don't have to be too subtle, because no matter how subtle or unsubtle you are, only the readers that share that ideal will be attracted by that book, while all others will find it uninteresting or irritating.

While the post I quote has many valid points I am not sure that the passage above works for each and every scenario. The subtlety of your depiction of the said cultural standard depends largely on how important it is for your story.

If your world being full of fat beautiful women is one of the many aspects of the culture you are building, you can just brush upon that here and there, describing different characters--through the narrator's or other character's perception--and using positive wording to convey the person's reaction to the certain features, like 'smooth curves of her ample body', 'magnificent breasts', etc., and let the reader's imagination fill in the blanks without much risk of irritating or distancing them.

However, if your main character struggles with the fact that she is way too thin and considers herself ugly because of that and her internal conflict is what drives your story, then, by all means, go full throttle. You still may consider employing a targeted mixture of positive and negative epithets when she enviously measures herself up against her peers, who are beautiful, and 'my elbows are bony', 'oh, I have a gap between my thighs--it is repulsive', etc.

What I am trying to say is that for as long as you are not trying to blantly expose your reader to the rather alien to our culture idea that 'flapping folds of fat' are a pinnacle of physical attractiveness, you might have a better chance to reliably suspend disbelief.

posted over 8 years ago

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Lew‭

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Skinny=beautiful is a recent western concept, most cultures still see fat as healthy, beautiful, lively, or desirable and skinny women as diseased, ugly, barren, and close to death. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

A good illustration of Fat as ugly or sexy is in the Soldier Son Trilogy by Robin Hobb.

N.B. I admit that a large part of this was a rant, I skimmed your Q and I may have been unfair and over-reacted. Also, I just saw that you are a recent member, in Writer’s we tend to be nicer than in other SE sites and less-judgmental, particularly for new users, so mea culpa.

After rereading I saw that you that you mentioned other cultures standards, and that you used “for the most part”.

(because based on American’s rap culture, strategically placed, fat seems highly desirable, and having lived in the US I knew many people who though of fashion models as walking skeletons and preferred more rotund people. I guess I just didn’t like my interpretation of those “our standards”, and that “Hey guys” was the drop that pushed my buttons the wrong way.

Anyways, here are some beautiful descriptions, some of them about unconventional beauty

“She possessed a beauty much different from Daisy, more like a wildflower in the unspoiled earth than a prize-winning rose in a formal garden.” ― Gary Inbinder, The Flower to the Painter

I also found a mention of bigger girl lit featuring fat protagonists like in in Good in Bed, Conversations with the Fat Girl, The Way It Is, and Alternative Beauty.

Since it is a foreign culture, a fantasy culture I assume, readers should not expect western cultural standards; so any descriptions you make should be taken at face value, they would be a natural part of that society and not "weird" in any way.

You can just use classical descriptions of beauty and substitute what is beautiful to that person and expend it with sexy fat terms. Something like: the heavenly softness of her ample thighs, the inviting curve of her round belly, the glow of her moon face, her lustrous thick arm, voluptuous curves, full-figured majesty, plump over-ripe breasts, motherly/womanly form, imposing body, big as a mountain; filled with honey-dew, shapely as a fathered pillow, chubby , curvaceous body, comfortable folds, full lips, prominent bottom, generous features, land of plenty, country of milk and honey, mountain of beauty, abundant gifts, liberal size, gorgeous ampleness, stunning presence, picturesque curvature, pleasing softness, superb figure, pleasing roundness, encompassing arms, spherical perfection, substantial form, profuse gifts, wide comforting chest, portly padding, stout flawlessness, striking splendor, grand fruitfulness, vast bosom, considerable attributes, bursting cleavage , shapely body, munificent shape.....

You could also build the differences progressively introducing the alternative standards of beauty and smoothly building up on it; this may be less jarring to readers unused to see things differently.

You wrote that you are afraid of loosing readers who could be weirded out. I think this relies more on the skill of the description that its subject. A good description can make literally anything seem beautiful. For instance, I used to dislike mushrooms, after reading Tolkien, I began craving to eat some raw, now I like them, and every time I eat one, I am transported back to middle-earth.

Jay, you argue

“But if the book is written in English, presumably the target audience is English-speaking countries, where for the most part the standard is "thin”

I am not sure about SE, but in similar sites user are up to 40% from India. The site is international and speaking English is no the same as sharing a mostly modern western cultural bias.

Here is the distribution based on an estimate on professional developers for SE. While modern Indians are influenced by western standards, traditionally Fat is a sign of health, welth and beauty. Read Indian women taking dangerous 'fat pills' to GAIN weight and emulate curvy Bollywood stars“

“Read “ it has never been considered attractive to be thin in India” , yes it is changing, but still, there are countries were girls try their damnest to be fat; read about forcefeeding or west Africa , or fat is beautiful, or Top 10 Countries Celebrating Female Obesity

posted over 8 years ago

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Reed‭

105 reputation 3 7 18 0

Does the story you're writing center around this idea of the concept of what is beautiful being different from what the current Western standard of beauty is? Or is this just window dressing and world building?

If it's just background for the story, then treat it that way. Mention it casually, and incorporate it in as you would hover car or faster than light travel. It's there, and it belongs as naturally as trees belong in a forest and glass belongs in high rise buildings. Say the girl is beautiful and has deliciously chubby fingers, or whatever, and leave it at that.

It doesn't have to be a big deal. It's a given - this is what people think in the culture of your story.

And the idea that you're going to lose readers just because of some small element of world building is nuts. You might lose readers if your plot has holes in it, or if your writing is poor, but not for something like this.

posted over 8 years ago

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DoWhileNot‭

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One way to go about this would be to have the narrator and/or another character describe or comment on the character's looks in a positive way. If it's important to you to contrast this culture's standards of beauty with those in the U.S., I think that's best done through the words of a character.

I think you can also play around with emotional and psychological cues. I'm reading a Jane Smiley novel right now in which one of the most physically attractive characters is a narcissist and a disengaged parent, and another character is described as plain but is at the emotional center of many of the relationships in the book because she is warm and funny and empathetic. Your narrator can filter and shape what your readers know and think about your characters.

posted over 8 years ago

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Kristen Tate‭

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Lots of helpful answers here. I'm adding one more as I think the suggestions which accompanied this quote...

The show-don't-tell style that is so popular among aspiring writers today, forces you to do almost all exposition through physical action or naturalistic conversation. It does not work well for this kind of thing because a culture's standards of beauty are largely assumed in polite converation.

...are very helpful for writers who want to eschew the 'show-don't-tell' style mentioned, but I also think there's no need to eschew it. That style allows more than enough freedom to do this naturally.

How to do it, without departing from a normal, modern style of narrative

Most non-word-people haven't heard of free indirect speech, but all modern readers intuitively understand it. That means you can give us the point-of-view character's internal monologue as part of the narrative. For example:

Jack stared at the door. What was behind it? Could Sarah still be alive? He wiped a dramatic bead of sweat from his brow.

It's perfectly fine in this style to give your character's thoughts about something, as long as those thoughts feel like a natural part of the character's internal monologue at that time. You can use this to show your character is attracted to a person, the same way you could show your character is attracted to anything else.

Jack stared at the door. The craftsmanship was stunning. He moistened his lips. Mahogany. Viennese jambs. The studs were iron, smooth and plump. The varnish was thick, fresh, gleaming... he extended a hand to touch it, but stopped himself. To sully something so beautiful would be unthinkable.

The example is daft, of course, but hopefully you get the idea. If you let us live inside your point-of-view character's head, we can see what they're thinking about, what distracts them, what they fixate on.

Creepiness

Noticing someone's attractive features doesn't have to make them a creep — it's all about context. They could be...

• Aware of the attractive person but trying not to stare
• Shaking their head at an advert, say, where the attractive features of the picture are cartoonishly exaggerated
• Ruefully recalling how somebody else fell for the charms of the attractive person
• Tutting at how the attractive person was treated by others who are being creepy
• Giving the attractive person direct compliments and attention which the person actually wants (let's not forget that between consenting adults it does occasionally happen!)

Closing blather

I sense (perhaps wrongly) that the person who kindly gave you the answer above is not a fan of the 'show-don't tell' principle. That's fine, of course. But I would caution that it's popular for a reason.

It engages the reader with your story better, because it more closely approximates the experience of being there for the story. The experience of reading the words 'Cole was angry' has only a distant connection to the experience of being confronted with an angry person. If instead you make me feel present as Cole punches the table, see him hyperventillate through his teeth, make me twitch when I'm flecked with his spittle — that more closely approximates the experience of being in the story, and that makes it more compelling.

I wouldn't be so quick to abandon 'show-don't-tell' style. Of course, maybe I'm just blinded by my slavish adherence to fashion ;)

posted over 8 years ago

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Cakebox‭

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The trick that most novels use is not to describe what is thought beautiful in that world. In most novels, when a character is supposed to be beautiful, this is simply stated, and it is up to the reader to imagine what that person looks like. In fact, in most novels you have no idea what skin color, body height, or wheight the protagonists have. I like this approach, because it allows anyone to project their own ideas of beauty into their reading and come out satisfied.

Only when physical characteristics play a role in the story, is it necessary to describe them in more detail. Otherwise I would abstain from physical descriptions, as they stifle the imagination of the reader and limit the novel's applicability.

If you want to explicitly define a beauty ideal different than the one prevalent in your culture, this will always lead to friction. I remember reading a book about some non-human characters, and one character was seen as beautiful by another and the aspects of their beauty were described. I remember clearly how I thought that fur is not something I find erotic on a person and how I could not follow the character in their emotions, so I finally dropped that book.

You will cause a similar effect. If you explicitly describe overweight bodies as beautiful, no matter how subtle, there will be a point at which those that don't share that beauty ideal will drop out, or at least take a distance and start reading differently: no longer involved, but more like reading a documentary.

I guess that overweight persons have a similar experience when they read of a thin ideal, so there is a choice you have to make: when you promote non-standard ideals, you will lose readers that do not subscribe to this ideal; when you promote standard ideals, you will lose readers that have other ideals; when you promote no beauty ideals at all, all readers can follow you, but beauty ideals are no longer a topic of your book.

So if you want to create a culture in which overweight bodies are perceived as beautiful, you really don't have to be too subtle, because no matter how subtle or unsubtle you are, only the readers that share that ideal will be attracted by that book, while all others will find it uninteresting or irritating.

So don't focus your attention on the subtleness, but rather focus your attention on conveying that culture well. For that, just get into your characters and look at their world through their eyes. How would they describe it? Use their words. It is all about understanding your characters well, and the challenge is not to tell them from your own, outsider eyes.

But if you want to convincingly show a culture-wide beauty ideal that differs from what is healthy and vigorous, you will have a problem. People do not simply think something beautiful because it is beautiful. Beauty always signifies something for them.

For example, a certain facial shape appears attractive to a person because it signifies a certain personality. A look (hair style, clothing) appears beautiful because it signifies a lifestyle that we find attractive. And so on. In US-mainstream culture, physical beauty is what signifies youth, health and physical power. There are subcultures where men fatten their wives because they like fat bodies, but for a person from the cultural center another person appears beautiful because they appear vigorous and healthy.

So if you have a culture where the majority find overweight bodies beautiful, a person of that culture will think of and feel the reasons for this beauty ideal.

Think of US culture. The average man looking at the average beautiful woman will not just think: "She is beautiful." He will think: "Oh my god, her skin is so smooth [= healthy], her waist is so thin [= vigorous], etc." So in an overweight-loving culture, you'll have to argue for your ideal in a similar way. A person of that culture looking at another person will have to think of what being overweight signifies for them, and since it is not a fringe subculture (such as the fattening subcultrue in America today), those arguments have to be such that a whole culture can endorse them. And that is difficult, as being overweight is unhealthy (scientifically proven fact) and limits the physical ability of the individual (they cannot run so fast, jump so high, stand for so long, etc.), so you'll have to be very creative in finding a convincing mechanism that lead a whole culture to that ideal.

In the polynesian culture that I mentioned in my comment to your question, the ideal of being fat was limited to the upper class. It was not something thought beautiful, but something thought aristocratic. Being fat was a luxury that only very few could afford, so it signified power and wealth. It was not an idea that every member of the culture tried to aspire to, but more like a crown: a symbol of a social position.

posted over 8 years ago

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System‭

3226 reputation 147 215 553 0

There are a lot of great answers here already, but I wanted to chime in with something that I felt was missing.

If you want to show (not tell, as alluded to earlier in the Conrad / Kipling discussion) that a culture has a different beauty standard, then that different standard should be represented in their cultural media.

You mention in your post what the standard of beauty is in the US -- how did you arrive at that conception of what the standard of beauty is? Are people constantly talking about what is beautiful to them? Or, more likely, are people who match up with the standard of beauty more represented in media than people who don't? Wouldn't this be the same in the society you're writing about?

Whatever means of cultural transmission the society you're thinking about uses, the standard of beauty will be represented in them. Paintings will feature people that meet the standard, professional or popular actors and dancers will exemplify the beauty standard, even bathroom signs might subtly reflect what that society expects people to look like.

Have fun with it -- try to notice what everyday things subtly (and not-so-subtly) reinforce the beauty standards you've grown up with, and try to think of what would be analogous to those reinforcements in the society you're writing about.

Overall, don't forget that while the characters in your story can represent and indicate the beauty standards of cultures, so can the objects.

posted over 8 years ago

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pcl‭

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I think this is very much a matter of the overall narrative style of the work. Some narrative styles will give you great liberty to do this, some will make it very difficult or forced. The question then becomes, do you choose a narrative style that makes it easy to deal with your subject matter in the way you want to, or do you hobble yourself with a style that does not work for what you want to do.

The show-don't-tell style that is so popular among aspiring writers today, forces you to do almost all exposition through physical action or naturalistic conversation. It does not work well for this kind of thing because a culture's standards of beauty are largely assumed in polite converation. A conversation in which people list of the attributes they find attractive in someone will tend to portray them as boorish or creepy, which may not be what you want at all.

If you are willing to adopt a more narrative style in which the writer is allowed to say things to the reader in their own voice, then you can tell the reader, for instance, that such and such a character was considered very beautiful because she had sharp elbows and crooked nose, and that establishes that those features are the marks of beauty in that culture. Jane Austen is a great exemplar of this narrative style.

If you are willing to adopt what we might call the storyteller style, you can address it even more directly, and say, "in those days" or "in that country, the standards of beauty were very different from our own." There is a lot of this style to be found in Kipling.

Or you can use a narrative frame (as Conrad does in Heart of Darkness) where the story is told by a character to an audience, and can explain things to that audience. Naturally here you portray an audience and a narrator that fits the kind of thing you want to get across. So choose an audience who would want to hear and a narrator who would want to comment on different standards of beauty.

Whatever you choose, though, is likely to be a choice for the whole work. You probably can't get away with dropping into a different style for one scene just to get this point across. It is difficult to change narrative styles in the middle, though Melville does it to great effect in Moby Dick. But it is entirely appropriate to choose a narrative style that gives you the liberty to deal with the issues you want to deal with in a work.

posted over 8 years ago

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Mark Baker‭

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