How little "fantasy" can be in a story and it still be recognizably fantasy?

As little as it is recognizably fantasy for the editor.

Ok, just kidding. First you have to be aware of the fact that the "not strong enough fantasy element" wasn't the real reason why the editor dismissed the book. Even editors have problems pointing always precisely to the real problem. It could just be the most obvious thing which the editor felt uncomfortable about. Maybe he would have ignored that if another part of the book were superior.

Back to the question: As soon as you use something supernatural, you are leaving the "mainstream" fiction, as you call it. That does not mean that it is automatically fantasy. It could be a horror book, which can contain elements from fantasy without being declared as such. Not to mention the diminishing difference between SF and fantasy in some areas.

It would help if we knew what that "weak" fantasy element was. Let us assume you write a story about a girl with a sixth sense. She knows things that will happen in the next ten minutes, she feels, when she is observed.

This is a supernatural gift (I don't have a better word). Readers of the mainstream novels could dislike it, because it is not realistic enough (which does not mean they wouldn't read James Bond novels). If you declare it as fantasy, would a fantasy fan (expecting a Tolkien story, witches, or vampires, etc.) be disappointed? Yes, probably.

Fantasy readers like to "escape" the real world. They want to enjoy the possibilities which are not given in our world (and probably never will, to separate them from SF readers). Magic is the most obvious one. Creating fireballs out of nowhere. Meeting creatures like dragons and goblins, which you will never do on good old Earth.

So your world need to be significantly different from our world to generate a complete new feeling to walk on that world. A girl with a sixth sense does not sound that extraordinary. That does not mean you can't write a really great book with that girl, but if you disappoint the expectation of your audience, you'll fail.

As always it's hard to draw a line. Knowing your fantasy element might help if you (James) want to share it. But be prepared that we find out that your editor is wrong ;)

posted over 13 years ago

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John Smithers‭

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As a basic boundary, Fantasy depends on what couldn't be. The amount of fantasy can be slight, or it can be grand, but that strangeness element must be there. More importantly, for a work to be recognised as fantasy, it will require someone of authority deciding that it is fantasy. Karen Joy Fowler is of sufficient status to be able to declare that her work is science fiction, and that is likely to be good enough.

In science fiction and fantasy, there have always been works that sparked debate about whether it is or isn't sci-fi or fantasy. However, unless you're an established author, you don't have the luxury of declaring your work to be fantasy or science fiction like Fowler does; someone else has to do that for you. That means your editor, publisher, your readership, and/or your peers and critics must declare it fantasy to be so.

The only way you're going to achieve this is by reading a wide canon of fantasy works to be able to see how it's been done, which helps give a clear picture of what you can get away with, what people recognise as being fantasy. There is, unfortunately, no other way. I'd suggest listening to those editors, critics and readers to see why they don't consider it fantasy. Once you're established, then you can help push those boundaries of what fantasy is.

posted over 13 years ago

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Craig Sefton‭

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Well, I think it also depends on how you personally feel about your text. Many, many years ago, I ran across this same question. The professor (Jim, I don't remember if it was you or not) took two books - Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card, and Dragonriders of Pern by Anne McCaffrey. The professor pointed out that so many people figured Ender's Game was a science fiction story, but he claimed that it was fantasy, whereas McCaffrey always swore up and down that her series was science fiction.

So, in a nut shell, if you can argue to your editor that your book has dragons, swords and sorcery, and it's science fiction, then you've got the makings of a good storyteller.

posted over 13 years ago

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Nathan Herald‭

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I think the key question here is: what element in your story do you see as being a "fantasy" element?

There's no denying we've seen plenty of fantasy published that skirts the edge of mainstream. I've seen this pretty frequently in F&SF, in several flavors; I've seen magical realism in Fantasy Magazine; Andy Duncan's excellent "Unique Chicken Goes In Reverse" was published in Eclipse One, and made the Nebula ballot. How little can you pull off? In a lot of venues, pretty darn little.

The bar isn't a lower bound on fantastic content; it's just the requirement that whatever you've got should be felt. If you yourself sense that your story is a fantasy story, you should be able to work out why you feel that way. Would you feel the story wouldn't work well in a mainstream venue? If so - why? That's the element you should be homing in on. And if you feel like this element might not be clear, or might not be clearly fantastical (or fantasy-related), in the eyes of a potential reader - then you'll want to polish that particular aspect, give it more prominence, make sure it gets noticed.

Your own "The Radio Magician," I would say, serves as a wonderful example. For almost the entire length of the story, there's no real fantastical element - quite the opposite; the story is largely about Charlie's fascination with "magic" that's as fake and unwonderous as magic can be. And yet the story is suffused by the sense of wonder that Charlie feels; that's a worthy fantasy element, even though it isn't fantastical. And you introduce and develop the concept of a "radio magician" almost exactly like SF premise, taking the (well-known) phenomenon of old-fashioned radio and giving it a twist; it's "mundane" in the same sense that "mundane SF" is mundane - it's not unrealistic, but it requires a certain extrapolation and flight of fancy. And again, you've put the showcasing of the "radio magician" concept into the very heart of the story - you made the story about your pseudo-fantastical concept, about showing it off and making the reader consider how very close it was to real-life parallels.

If you feel your piece is fantasy, it probably is; you just need to make sure other people know it. Figure out where the fantasy is - even if it's subtle, or just the style, or just the theme - and make that element stand out.

And, of course, aim for the venues that aren't looking for straight-up sword and sorcery stories :)

posted over 13 years ago

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Standback‭

680 reputation 38 269 122 1

I will say zero! Reasoning below...

I presume you mean magic, or other species with human level intelligence (or more), etc. So that is the part I would say has a lower bound of zero. I think fantasy is about setting.

Consider science fiction: We have zero evidence of any kind that FTL is possible, we have zero evidence of other species. The Star Trek transporter is effectively magic, there is no scientific evidence that such a thing is possible; even the "quantum teleportation" reports IRL are not really teleportation in the Star Trek sense. In Star Wars, carbonite is a fantasy element, so is the Ice Planet of Hoth with its utterly laughable ecosystem (what do the animals EAT?)

Science fiction is littered with magical elements that have no scientific plausibility whatsoever, but what makes it science fiction is the setting and beliefs of the characters that their tools ARE scientific. All the crew of the Enterprise believe completely that their Warp Drive is an engineering marvel, that "warp particles" exist, that "tractor beams" have a scientific explanation and artificial gravity is easy to generate with some kind of "plate" material. That Time Travel is possible.

Most importantly, that intelligent and highly technological life (with Warp technology) has developed everywhere in the Galaxy and likely in other Galaxies too), that can speak and reason like people. How is a Ferengi different than a Troll? How is a Klingon different than an Ogre?

In The Next Generation, Q is a 100% magical god of a being, effectively immortal and capable of magic, but the characters believe Q has some scientific way of accomplishing his feats.

The same is true of fantasy. What makes it fantasy, instead of science fiction, is the setting and beliefs and attitudes of the characters. The "fantasy" elements you devise do not require magic, they can be religions, cultures, even plants, animals or ideas that did not actually exist.

It is not fantasy to think other humanoid species could exist; there is scientific evidence they did! Just 50,000 years ago Homo Sapiens lived alongside Neandertals, Denisovans, and Homo Florensis: Three distinctly different DNA types; and although we don't know what Denisovans looked like, Neandertals looked like fantasy Trolls and Homo Floresiensis were dwarfish, half our height.

I will concede that if you have something called magic in your story that cannot be anything but, then you have a Fantasy.

But to me what is fantasy is more about a setting and the knowledge of characters in the story. They may have a drink that cures illness, and believe it a magic potion, when I can devise such a drink for you in real life: It just contains a dilute antibiotic that occurs naturally (like those in bread mold). In the story the witch that brews this drink is following a recipe that is chemically sound.

In short, magic can appear to be science fiction, and science fiction can appear to be fantasy, and the real difference is in how it is presented, the setting, and what the characters believe about what they see and hear. You do not truly need any actual magic for your story to be a fantasy. But it helps!

posted about 7 years ago

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Amadeus‭

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